Curse

salja Wachi · Sep 20, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Why would you want multiple Wells of the Profane? You need one corpse, not ten. Which means that one corpse you will be able to exploit is all you need for this to work. As far as corpse exploitation goes, using Glyph of Sacrifice is about as 'guaranteed' as it's going to get, and I don't see the logic behind using ineffective skills that you are easier to cast, unless all you're concerned with is looking busy.

hmmm OK so let me get this straight. you are saying all you need is one corpse for WOP to be effective. I ahve to differ with you. You cannot choose which corpse your well is going to come from, it is the closest one to you that the well is made from. it is very very easy to run out of one well (even if the well yo umake goes where you want it, which does not happen all the time)

so yes more than 1 well is usually needed since no one i play with is gonna stand in the one well you make.

now can you please list for me the skills i mentioned that you think are "ineffective"?

I would love to hear them

Zeru · Sep 20, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

This thread is an excellent example of why the quality of posting on gurus has reached an unbeatable low.

I'm not sure which is worse: the necro fanboyism or the debate over skill descriptions. Regardless, a lot of the old quality posters here are gone because of this stupidity. I guess those who actually want to learn will have to frequent somewhere else now. What a pity.

For wotp, glyph of sacrifice is not wise b/c you don't know when the corpse will die usually and therefore you're stuck not casting anything till it wears off or someone dies. And if a body dies in the wrong spot then congrats you just screwed yourself over.

Soul Reaping is at the ok level in tombs right now because of all the IWAY teams. In gvg it's absolute garbage though especially with the recent trends of low dps stalling builds.

Now if you want a real energy engine, throw 14 in energy storage and abuse ether renewal because nothing else in the game comes close.

Siren · Sep 20, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

hmmm OK so let me get this straight. you are saying all you need is one corpse for WOP to be effective. I ahve to differ with you. You cannot choose which corpse your well is going to come from, it is the closest one to you that the well is made from. it is very very easy to run out of one well (even if the well yo umake goes where you want it, which does not happen all the time)

so yes more than 1 well is usually needed since no one i play with is gonna stand in the one well you make.

now can you please list for me the skills i mentioned that you think are "ineffective"?

I would love to hear them

Well, I think you're both right, because the amount of corpses you would need will greatly depend on what you want to do with WotP.

If you want to blanket the arena (which is a bit iffy, given WotP's 25 energy cost and 3 second cast time), you're going to need multiple corpses. There's really nothing more delicious than having two or three Death Necros dropping three WotPs that overlap ever so slightly so you've got an entire arena of enchant strip/suppression.

But unless the battle is really spread out, you're not really going to need to do that.

And if you're engaged in the opposite (really bunched close combat) with Monks on the distant perimeter along with the other spellcasters, that's where you only need one corpse. Speaking from personal experience, one of my first outings in Tombs, using a Fast Casting Mesmer with heavy Death and Domination magic, it's so very delicious letting your team know that you just need one corpse to completely screw the other team's enchants.

I've done it before (to a Korean team, no less) and the other team dropped within seconds. And what's really interesting about WotP is that with a primary Necro, you have so many ways to tell if a corpse dropped.

Whether through your energy/Soul Reaping being triggered, if there's one less life bar on the field...and the beauty of the Wells is that you can time them so as soon as that corpse hits the floor, your Well is already there. Get the timing down, and Putrid Explosion, Animate Bone Fiends...are all entirely useless. It's entirely possible.

And that's another reason why people need to really start accepting the viability of primary Necros, and why the only reason people think primary Necros suck is because they haven't taken the time to understand the fundamentals and dynamics of the class. The two deadliest classes in the game are Necros and Mesmers when played competently. I stand by that. Other classes are dangerous when played well, sure, but if you face against a Necro/Mes or Mes/Nec on the top of their game...you're going to die.

And what's really interesting is that the biggest threat to Necros and Mesmers is other Necros and Mesmers. Everything else is just an annoyance if you know what you're doing. And come to think of it...that's probably why Nec and Mes Mirror fights are so much more difficult than other classes: because your Mirror is using your own skills (Mes and Nec skills, mind) against you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

you don't know when the corpse will die usually and therefore you're stuck not casting anything till it wears off or someone dies. And if a body dies in the wrong spot then congrats you just screwed yourself over.

Zeru, no offense, but your reasoning falls apart when any experienced Corpse Exploiter plays. The very reason one plays a Corpse Exploiter Necro is because one has learned when to expect a corpse to appear, where a corpse will appear, and how fast that corpse will appear when the target dies.

There's a window of around 2.0 seconds when a live target counts as a corpse. If you study the life bar really carefully, you can see this. When the life hits a certain point, and the damage infliction is going to kill the target, you hit WofP, WoP, or WoB, WoS, etc., and your spell won't hit "Invalid Target."

I guarantee that if you really play Corpse Exploiting, and study the dynamics of what you can and can't do (see what rules can be bent, as it were), you'll see why your argument about not knowing where and when a corpse will appear...is completely laughable. Because if you just pay attention on the field, you'll be able to read it well enough so that your Wells will be right where you want them, 90% of the time, barring random, weird exceptions.

This isn't a Necro Fanboy talking. This is an Experienced Necro talking.

free · Sep 20, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Probably a stupid question but what is IWAY? What does it stand for?

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by free

Probably a stupid question but what is IWAY? What does it stand for?

I Will Avenge You.

It's a noob build. Generally a W/R build with pets. You take charm animal, REs Sig, and I Will Avenge You. I Will Avenge You gives you 10 seconds of HP regen for every dead ally and it makes you attack faster.

Necros are generally used for Order of Vampire so that the warriors steal health when they attack.

Silmor · Sep 20, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

hmmm OK so let me get this straight. you are saying all you need is one corpse for WOP to be effective. I ahve to differ with you. You cannot choose which corpse your well is going to come from, it is the closest one to you that the well is made from. it is very very easy to run out of one well (even if the well yo umake goes where you want it, which does not happen all the time)

Something like Wall of the Profane is most efficient against an enchantment heavy team trying to hold a certain tactical position. Get one off at the right spot (if needed using a corpse of your own) and their enchantment web is gone, and they'll need to move out of the place they were defending (such as the altar in HoH), thus potentially breaking open a healing impasse.

The skill you mentioned you'd use, being Consume Corpse, is effective in the sense that it will stop opponents from using long-casting Wells in a regular fashion, but a instant cast Well through GoS will still beat it to the corpse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

you don't know when the corpse will die usually and therefore you're stuck not casting anything till it wears off or someone dies. And if a body dies in the wrong spot then congrats you just screwed yourself over.

Those are valid practical concerns, but the basic point I was trying to make is that if you want to use Well of the Profane against a team trying to stop you from doing so, Glyph of Sacrifice is pretty much the only way to be sure. How successful you are casting it depends on your experience, team coordination (for spiking or sacrificing to create a corpse), timing and the measures the other team may take to stop you. Failing it screws you over, yeah, but not using GoS to get WotP going will mean they'll Necrotic Traversal, Putrid or otherwise pop the corpse before you can do anything with it, and WotP can do nothing for you, which is worse when you need its effect to break through an impasse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeru

This thread is an excellent example of why the quality of posting on gurus has reached an unbeatable low.

I'm not sure which is worse: the necro fanboyism or the debate over skill descriptions. Regardless, a lot of the old quality posters here are gone because of this stupidity.

Many also left because of dissatisfaction with the game itself, but you might be right about the rest. The skill description 'debate' was pretty much a fluke though, someone got called on a mistake but refused to stop and realize it, I guess because those that called him on it weren't "respectable" enough, which isn't surprising considering how that kind of stupidity is chasing those "respectables" off day by day.

glockjs · Sep 20, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

to answer your original question....

1) tomb with your guild
2) go to international d's where most guilds meet, they might be looking for an extra

Ensign · Sep 20, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

There's a window of around 2.0 seconds when a live target counts as a corpse.

Brilliance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

When the life hits a certain point, and the damage infliction is going to kill the target, you hit WofP, WoP, or WoB, WoS, etc., and your spell won't hit "Invalid Target."

The term you're looking for here is 'latency'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

This isn't a Necro Fanboy talking. This is an Experienced Necro talking.

Clearly.

Peace,
-CxE

salja Wachi · Sep 20, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

lol who got called on a mistake?

these are opinions here not facts as far as i can tell unless you are talking about algren's lack of proper punctuation.

romO · Sep 20, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

you were probably spamming american districts. only newbs there. thats probably why you were seeing so much IWAY. try international districts. i dont think anyone builds IWAY there plus every good build there involves a necro. the only problem might be your rank, because thats where all the higher ranked players play and they might not need you if you arent up to their level.

Silmor · Sep 20, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

If it was just punctuation it wouldn't be so bad, there wouldn't be much discrepancy between that which he wrote and that which he supposedly meant to write. But he gave a description of Lingering Curse that precisely described an effect the skill doesn't have, which anyone with half a clue about Guild Wars will just raise an eyebrow over and move on, but people unfamiliar with Necromancers might actually pick up on the misinformation and run with it. Given Algren's reputation for cluelessness when it comes to the mechanics of skills and the time and effort it took for him to realize the flaw, calling it a 'mistake' is actually very forgiving, but that's that.

You can't have discussions of any noteworthy level without some base knowledge of how things work. If I enter a discussion about maximum damage output and note Flare does 16..146 fire damage and is therefore an awesome damage skill, I'm only off by a single digit. Did I make a typo, and just love flare for what it is? Or do I think Flare actually does that much damage, and is that why I love it? Until that is cleared up my statement on the skill is pointless, but it doesn't help if I go off and ridicule anyone who points out the error. Unfortunately my mistake already dumbed the thread down to a point where people shy away from it because it has people struggling with basics instead of actual discussion, so hopefully the mistake isn't repeated.

salja Wachi · Sep 20, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

hehehe ok good enough for me

anyway back to our debate. my responses were for the poser who said to go 16 death.

in my opinion 16 death is way too much, lets for the sake of argument say you can get up your WotP before yo lose the corpse. you still need only 5 attribute points in death to avoid the 50% chance of failure.

I see no other reason to put any attributes in death than need be when with blood/curse you have 3 spells at your disposal that take down enchantments. LC and rend take down basically all of them and strip removes 1 while giving you a great self heal to boot.

as far as defeating IWAY groups if you are in a miting group your best bet is to stay in a group and "smite ball" them anyway. with 3 monks and constant seed no way anyone should die in your party anyway.

and really the only 2 groups in tombs atm is iway and smiters the balanced groups are still thre but few and far between

Siren · Sep 20, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Brilliance.

The term you're looking for here is 'latency'.

Clearly.

Peace,
-CxE

The point was that too many people are missing those dynamics. That particular timing for the Wells is there, because I've done it in Tombs before, PvE, etc. So...I'm not sure what your point was, apart from a pseudo-intellectual spam reply.

salja Wachi · Sep 20, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

The point was that too many people are missing those dynamics. That particular timing for the Wells is there, because I've done it in Tombs before, PvE, etc. So...I'm not sure what your point was, apart from a pseudo-intellectual spam reply.

lmao i agree 100%

but then again it is not the first time

he is just trying to make a guildmember look good

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

lmao i agree 100%

but then again it is not the first time

he is just trying to make a guildmember look good

iQ does that from time to time...they've got a "reputation" to uphold

Ensign · Sep 20, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

The point was that too many people are missing those dynamics.

My point is that those dynamics do not exist. Go and reproduce them in a low latency environment. You can begin casting a corpse exploitation skill the instant something dies, and not a moment sooner.

How exactly do you think this is supposed to work? You can start casting a corpse exploitation skill on a living target just because his health is low? What happens if he gets heals? There is no point in time when an individual still has hit points left when he is guaranteed to die. I've never seen a corpse exploitation skill start to cast on a target at low health, then fail because someone got heals. That simply doesn't make any sense.

I have seen phenomena like what you described, and they're mostly latency and communication artifacts. The player who's corpse you're exploiting is already dead in game, you just haven't seen it yet. The two most common communication bugs come from DoTs and Deep Wounds. DoT will kill a player instantly when he hits 0, but the death animations from those can be delayed a couple of seconds - the game normally only updates clients of hit point states whenever damage is taken, while DoTs are calculated independently client and server side. That's why you'll see yourself linger at 1 HP from a DoT a lot of the time before you drop dead - the local interface will get you down to 1, but you have to wait for the server to inform you of death.

The Deep Wound bug is similar. Deep Wounds take off 20% of max health from max and current health, and that updates instantly. But the client's graphical settings do not update until damage is taken. So oftentimes you'll have a Deep Wound kill someone, but they're still standing up on a client's screen. The next time they're healed or take damage, the game will send the packet informing you that you're dead and you'll fall over. Again this is a client/server disconnect bug - the victim has been dead from the Deep Wound for a while and you can exploit the corpse even if it isn't on your screen.

To reiterate - you can only use a corpse exploitation skill once there is a corpse in range to exploit, but whether or not your client has been informed of the corpse is a different matter entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I'm not sure what your point was, apart from a pseudo-intellectual spam reply.

My point is that you're wrong, followed by a short discourse on exactly why you're wrong, why your argument doesn't make any sense, and why you're seeing the phenomena that you're seeing. Did I miss anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

he is just trying to make a guildmember look good

I was trying to correct what was originally an honest mistake before it snowballed into yet another entry of ridiculous, erroneous 'common knowledge'. I find it downright offensive that people take issue with such arguments, and try to discredit them as personal politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nailz

iQ does that from time to time...they've got a "reputation" to uphold

It's good to see that the drooling morons that inhabit this forum take every opportunity possible to uphold their reputation as a pack of anti-intellectual scrubs who are more interested in stroking their own egos than actually learning something.

Peace,
-CxE

Siren · Sep 20, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My point is that those dynamics do not exist. Go and reproduce them in a low latency environment. You can begin casting a corpse exploitation skill the instant something dies, and not a moment sooner.

How exactly do you think this is supposed to work? You can start casting a corpse exploitation skill on a living target just because his health is low? What happens if he gets heals? There is no point in time when an individual still has hit points left when he is guaranteed to die. I've never seen a corpse exploitation skill start to cast on a target at low health, then fail because someone got heals. That simply doesn't make any sense.

I have seen phenomena like what you described, and they're mostly latency and communication artifacts. The player who's corpse you're exploiting is already dead in game, you just haven't seen it yet. The two most common communication bugs come from DoTs and Deep Wounds. DoT will kill a player instantly when he hits 0, but the death animations from those can be delayed a couple of seconds - the game normally only updates clients of hit point states whenever damage is taken, while DoTs are calculated independently client and server side. That's why you'll see yourself linger at 1 HP from a DoT a lot of the time before you drop dead - the local interface will get you down to 1, but you have to wait for the server to inform you of death.

The Deep Wound bug is similar. Deep Wounds take off 20% of max health from max and current health, and that updates instantly. But the client's graphical settings do not update until damage is taken. So oftentimes you'll have a Deep Wound kill someone, but they're still standing up on a client's screen. The next time they're healed or take damage, the game will send the packet informing you that you're dead and you'll fall over. Again this is a client/server disconnect bug - the victim has been dead from the Deep Wound for a while and you can exploit the corpse even if it isn't on your screen.

To reiterate - you can only use a corpse exploitation skill once there is a corpse in range to exploit, but whether or not your client has been informed of the corpse is a different matter entirely.

My point is that you're wrong, followed by a short discourse on exactly why you're wrong, why your argument doesn't make any sense, and why you're seeing the phenomena that you're seeing. Did I miss anything?

Ah...so presumably then, I shouldn't be able to get off a Well before others use Animate Bone Fiend, because I'm just getting lag and therefore that Bone Fiend should rise long before I can get through the 3-second cast time of WotP, because the other player has a so-called "true" connection? I shouldn't be able to steal corpses from opposing Necros in Tombs and PvP as they're casting a Well? Or Ritualists and PvE Minionmasters as they're casting a Well or raising a Bone Fiend?

If it's all just lag/latency...other players and characters should be able to beat me to those corpses.

But they don't. If it's a delay exclusive to my machine here, then 90% of my Wells shouldn't even be happening. Other players should be using those corpses entire seconds before I'm finished my cast time. And that's not happening.

Red Locust · Sep 20, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Others get the delay as well. It's just a matter of who hammers on the spell button faster.

nailz · Sep 20, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My point is that those dynamics do not exist. Go and reproduce them in a low latency environment. You can begin casting a corpse exploitation skill the instant something dies, and not a moment sooner.

not to be trivial...but how exactly is he going to emulate this scenario in a low latency environment? Have you ever had a ping under 150ms? I sure haven't and I watch it everytime I play...There have been many many people who have commented about their latency being unusually high....you can't test something in a low latency environment when that environment doesn't exist. 150ms+ ping isn't low latency...it's not even close.

Quote:

It's good to see that the drooling morons that inhabit this forum take every opportunity possible to uphold their reputation as a pack of anti-intellectual scrubs who are more interested in stroking their own egos than actually learning something.

you're kinda pompous, and by kinda I mean incredibly....which I can't foresee as being a good quality. But at least you're almost always right.

ElderAtronach · Sep 20, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

unless you are running a minion build Soul Reaping is doing nothing for you. The amount of energy gained when an opponent dies isn't going to be worth not being able to max out another useful attribute.

I'm gonna have to call bullshit when I see it. Soul Reaping guarantees you energy when something dies, which basically means you are guaranteed to have energy to use a corpse exploiting skill. When your skill bar is filled with wells, putrid, and curses, you do not need "another useful attribute". 14 death/11 curse/11 soul reaping with runes is all you need to run Lingering Curse, wells, and putrid/consume.

If you rely on SR to give you energy for anything other than corpse spells you're going to be disappointed. But when you need energy for a well of suffering, you can't beat SR for its passive gain (i.e. you don't need to stop to cast any other energy management spell).